Curse

Davros Uitar · Nov 15, 2007, 10:32 AM // 10:32

/agree with the basic tenet. Skill updates refresh the game and keep it interesting. Sometimes they play havoc with your fabourite builds, and that means find a way about things, or play a different class for a while. If the nerf is truly absolutely 100% unfair then they will realise in time and shift things back in another update.

If there were no updates you would have to play "ele tank monk",game and that is just dullsville.

artay · Nov 15, 2007, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Tell that to ether renewal.

I think that game updates, skill buffs and nerfs are good as long as they don't destroy certain skills, as they keep the meta and game mechanics fresh.

dark_prince2023 · Nov 15, 2007, 10:40 AM // 10:40

I like nerfs sometimes. I don't play for long periods of time so when I come back I have to relearn most of the things. I don't like them but I know they're needed to keep the gameing moving espacialy now that they aren't going to be coming out with anything new. It's the best way to change the game without actually changing the game.

arcanemacabre · Nov 15, 2007, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphatorael

It creates a surplus. the 10 becomes 20, 30, 40, or even more (through things as timing). Pressure would lower their capability to cope with the spike (say, dropping their healing capability from 10 to 6 due to a lack of energy, or crappy positioning with a knockdown from Horns of the Ox being the result (to bring an Assassin example in here)). If the team works together right the number/balance within the match itself will change the whole time, which is the direct result of the player's and his/her team's skill, and ability to adapt to whatever might be happening (e.g. split tactics, full gank, etc.).

Again, the point is Health and Energy is a static mechanic. I mean, unless we're talking nerfing that, too. That huge spike of 40+ damage against a single 480+ target is just so devastating, isn't it? Oh man, talk about a quick kill. Headshot!

Seriously. The skills are not just compared with themselves for effectiveness, they are also compared with static game mechanics, including, but not limited to: health, energy, armor, weapons (including modifiers), conditions, knockdown, blocking, life steal, degen, you name it. These things are independant of skill changes, though can see changes, too.

The point is: there is a line. It's a relatively arbitrary line, but it's a line that Anet (or perhaps just Izzy) has in mind, nonetheless. All the major game mechanics rest on this line (as long as they are perfectly happy with them), and every skill balance works to bring all skills closer to this line. Some skills are above the line, others are below the line. If you do nothing but nerfs, you entirely ignore all those skills below that line, and will either be left with skills on the line and skills below the line, or you nerf them further to bring them all to the same level - which would then be much lower than the line (all equivalent to the worst skill).

Or... and this is my point... You nerf the ones above the line, and buff the ones below the line. That is why skills are nerfed and buffed. Now, please explain where I am wrong.

Saphatorael · Nov 15, 2007, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Again, the point is Health and Energy is a static mechanic. I mean, unless we're talking nerfing that, too. That huge spike of 40+ damage against a single 480+ target is just so devastating, isn't it? Oh man, talk about a quick kill. Headshot!

I stopped reading your post here, because clearly, you didn't read mine properly.

arcanemacabre · Nov 15, 2007, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphatorael

I stopped reading your post here, because clearly, you didn't read mine properly.

Then perhaps you should explain yourself. If you are not talking about what I am addressing, then you are not talking about what you quoted (or failed to read it properly). Try again.

Saphatorael · Nov 15, 2007, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Then perhaps you should explain yourself. If you are not talking about what I am addressing, then you are not talking about what you quoted (or failed to read it properly). Try again.

You react to my post by addressing something completely different than I am, yet then you say I'm the one doing that? Try again yourself. And read the posts I reacted to with my first posts. Then perhaps you'll understand. Also, stop being such a little kid, this is about to change into a 'no u' thing.

PS: no u!

arcanemacabre · Nov 15, 2007, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphatorael

You react to my post by addressing something completely different than I am, yet then you say I'm the one doing that? Try again yourself. And read the posts I reacted to with my first posts. Then perhaps you'll understand. Also, stop being such a little kid, this is about to change into a 'no u' thing.

PS: no u!

OK, look, what does it matter? Can my post have substance, and a quote, without it appearing like some kind of attack on what you said? Besides, I re-read it, and the post you quoted, twice, and I still don't see where I'm going wrong.

Like I said, perhaps you should explain yourself. Make it a little clearer for the dumbasses like myself. Or you can just read what I typed instead of stopping halfway through because you thought I was attacking you.

Yanman.be · Nov 15, 2007, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Saph, at least I did something that match. Or that one time I solo-healed the guild lord at VoD with my ZB sin...You can't do that now can you?

DDL · Nov 15, 2007, 11:45 AM // 11:45

I think the 'ideal' that Anet intended to reach was a system nicely balanced but heavily varied, so that you never knew what you were going to face: it might be something your particular group is poorly set up to beat, but with decent communications and tactics, and maybe a bit of luck, you could still win. The point is, it would still be INTERESTING.

You'd come out of a match thinking "that was a really WEIRD combo that guy used..kinda worked, though".

Things like that.

Sadly, however, that sort of aim (while noble) isn't really compatible with basic human nature.

What you end up with are either gimmick builds that exploit mechanics to produce nigh-unbeatable brokeness, or the same old "w/w/m/m/e/r/me/other" 'versatility' build: something that can pretty much cope with anything, by virtue of neatly minimising any obvious weaknesses..at the cost of also neatly minimising any potential unexpected strengths. It's a bland but effective set up.

So you won't get "fun and different" vs "fun and different", you'll get "broken" or "bland", and that'll be it. And then nerfs come in to fix the gimmick, and you're back to bland vs bland.

If anything, they want to encourage more gimmick play, since that's at least shaking things up a bit: it's just a terribly fine line to tread between 'beatable' and 'unbeatable' gimmick balance.

Avarre · Nov 15, 2007, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

What you end up with are either gimmick builds that exploit mechanics to produce nigh-unbeatable brokeness, or the same old "w/w/m/m/e/r/me/other" 'versatility' build: something that can pretty much cope with anything, by virtue of neatly minimising any obvious weaknesses..at the cost of also neatly minimising any potential unexpected strengths. It's a bland but effective set up.

Guilds like EvIL used some of the most 'generic' setups, rarely ever changing, yet brought some of the most dynamic gameplay to the field. It's not only a question of the builds, but of how they're being run, and how mechanics effect the viable tactics - which in turn influences the builds run.

Cloud5646 · Nov 15, 2007, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

They already did. TS used to last like twice as long on sins and was used non stop in HA. Since it was nerfed, nobody seriously used it anymore.

not used anymore? it's on most shadow prison builds when it's not lightining reflexes...

Redfeather1975 · Nov 15, 2007, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by artay

I think that game updates, skill buffs and nerfs are good as long as they don't destroy certain skills, as they keep the meta and game mechanics fresh.

I feel the same way as you do. I wrote this in another forum and I think it applies to what you are saying.

I think the trickiest part of balancing skills is taking the synergies that fuel a cheap build out of play, without decreasing the number of viable builds, which were balanced, but happened to use some of the skills the unbalanced build did.

A skill update should strive to take the unbalanced aspects out of the game while maintaining or increasing potential build variety. If a skill update does not accomplish this the majority of the time, than very gradually the game is going to get stale, and people are going to notice the distinct lack of options/variety in whatever mode they play.

The game will become nothing more than a stagnant mess where skill updates only change the fotm and nothing more. I bet some people reading this are saying it's already happening. Maybe it's unavoidable at this point. I don't know.

Amon Warrior · Nov 15, 2007, 01:53 PM // 13:53

As long as there's no sledgehammer involved, it's all good...

Cloud5646 · Nov 15, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

This was the wrost planned nerf ever... ruined all my builds.
It was mainly to fix the hero battles arenas but it f***up alot of builds and forms of pvp and pve as well... that's not something smart...
I'm in favor of bannin SP build from HB and revert all the skill nerfs...

If they don't revert the changes after the weekend I'm quiting cuz that sucked too much

Bankai · Nov 15, 2007, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud5646

This was the wrost planned nerf ever... ruined all my builds.
It was mainly to fix the hero battles arenas but it f***up alot of builds and forms of pvp and pve as well... that's not something smart...
I'm in favor of bannin SP build from HB and revert all the skill nerfs...

If they don't revert the changes after the weekend I'm quiting cuz that sucked too much

So wait. You just basically said that you're so bad, that now these overpowered things are nerfed you are unable to play the game, because the rest is so much better at using builds that take skill?

Also, it's impossible to 'ban' the SP build from HB.

Yanman.be · Nov 15, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Also, it's impossible to 'ban' the SP build from HB.

But we can ban HB from GW amirite?

Crom The Pale · Nov 15, 2007, 04:03 PM // 16:03

While many skills have recieve a nerf an equal amount of skills have been buffed to make themselves useable.

Unfortuanatly not everyone will agree with what skill needs a nerf vs a buff.

Zaganher Deathbane · Nov 15, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Definitely agree with you there. It adds spice and encourages us to constantly experiment different builds. Always keeps me excited when the next skill update is going to happen

Burning Blade · Nov 15, 2007, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

I'll keep it short.

Nerfs are good.

They "renew" the game. For free. How is that bad?
I enjoy GW because having the best 8 skills + best usage == win. I don't care if I have to change those 8 skills every month or so.
They force me to puzzle with skills. I enjoy this. Free enjoyment. How is that bad?

Flame me.

Disclaimer: My favourite class, the assassin, got "nerfed" today. So don't start with "Yeah but you didn't get hit by the nerf bat". This nerf didn't make me sad. Instead, I can make a new, perhaps better "best" build, and prove my worth as best assassin ( and best assassin builder ) once again.

It's not that I hate or disagree to all the nerfs but calling nerfs are renewing or refreshing the game is kind of .... don't know what to put but you are promoting laziness. New items, new quests, new areas,... even very small or few are what most people prefer to see. So instead of adding those things, you are suggesting ANET to keep adding updates in the form of NERFs and it's good enough to make us happy?